Talk:The Doctor (Time Lord)
I created this article in preparation for Assimilation², so it should get an overhaul then. Since that's not out yet, I've left the Doctor as a fictional character, and just collected the unnamed appearances here for reference, noting the suppositions and links via Doctor Who. And of course marked as "incomplete" and a stub since it's awaiting further solid information. -- BadCatMan 08:26, February 17, 2012 (UTC) :What source do we have establishing that there is a fictional character named the Doctor (Time Lord) or a television series (in the Star Trek universe) named Doctor Who? This article seems to be completely based on invalid information. There's no Star Trek publications that specify any of the information contained here. This seems more like a list of things that people seem to think would be cute if the Doctor were involved somehow. -- Captain MKB 17:12, February 28, 2012 (UTC) ::No, it's a list of Doctor Who references that Star Trek authors thought would be cute to put in their novels. All the information is valid and those works were cited in the article. ::As a series: My Enemy, My Ally absolutely and definitely describes Doctor Who circa 1980: :::"Here we are," Uhura said, and dropped another tape in the read slot, hit the control. For a second nothing seemed to be happening on the stage. Then a peculiar grinding, wheezing sound began to fill the air. On the platform there slowly faded into existence a tall blue rectangular structure with doors in it, and a flashing white light on top, and what appeared to be the Anglish words POLICE PUBLIC CALL BOX blazoned on the front panel above the doors. There was a pause, during which the noise and the flashing light both stopped. Then one of the box's doors opened. To Jim's mild amusement, a hominid, quite Terran-looking, peered out and gazed around him in great interest; a curly-haired person in a burgundy jacket, with a floppy hat, a striped scarf of truly excessive length, and sharp bright eyes above a dazzling smile, ingenuous as a child's. "I beg your pardon," the man said merrily in a British-accented voice, apparently looking right at Jim, "but is this Heathrow?" ::You might see it here. If you're not familiar with the series, then compare to this image. ::That scene didn't happen in the real series, as the Heathrow thing began under the Fifth Doctor, but presumably in the Trek universe Tom Baker stayed longer in the role. No, neither the name of the series nor that of the character were given, but it is absolutely obviously meant to be the Fourth Doctor, the TARDIS, and Doctor Who the series. I noted exactly that in the article. ::As a character: Ishmael is chock-full of references to other series. Both the Second Doctor ("an untidy little man with a flute sticking out of one pocket of his threadbare velvet frock-coat") and the Fourth Doctor ("a tall, curly-haired man in the eccentric garb typical of space-tramps") are described and occupy the same places in identical bar scenes to make it more obvious. These are less clearly described but obvious when you know what to look for. These and other references are given both here at Ishmael and on Memory Alpha, and widely known across the internet. I don't know if Barbara Hambly admitted to it, but it's pretty clear, especially as the whole book is a crossover with something called Here Come the Brides. ::The "rather daft chap" in ''Harbinger'' is a bit of a stretch, but his sonic screwdriver is clear indicator of who that daft chap might be. ::No, these people are not named. Again, I noted exactly that in the article. We wouldn't have a name for the article at all without looking outside Trek sources — but we will have one when Assimilation² is released. -- BadCatMan 03:45, February 29, 2012 (UTC) :::I've thrown in extra citations and real-world markers if that helps. -- BadCatMan 05:45, February 29, 2012 (UTC) :It doesn't. :# This article is marked as existing from a "real-world" point of view - but we don't write articles about characters from the real-world POV - character articles are from an "in universe" point-of-view. The Data article doesn't begin with "Data was a fictional android character in TV's ST:TNG." - this is a complete violation of the POV policy. The article, once the comic is published, should read "The Doctor is a Time Lord from Gallifrey". The POV setup of this site is such that we don't create "real-world" articles about characters. :# The fact that Vanguard, Ishmael and other sources have fellows that seem to be the Doctor does -not- mean that the character referred to each time is the Doctor! There are other daft fellows with threadbare frock coats and sonic screwdrivers around. You are crafting an entire article around a false premise. When there is sufficient data about the Doctor, these can go in the appendices, in the background information section. We've discussed this before, and just because you think you see a clever reference to DW, or Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or whatever -- you cannot create and article about your favorite DW or Buffy character, on the assumption that your supposition was correct. Cervantes could have stolen the sonic screwdriver from John R. Timetravelson. You are filling in a blank with pure supposition. -- Captain MKB 07:00, February 29, 2012 (UTC) ::Fine, I removed the real-world marker. That was really only intended for the introductory paragraph, which I ported over from the TV show page. ::As I said in my first post here, I created this page in preparation for when the actual character appears in the comics. When he does, I fully expect this to get an overhaul and that information to be placed into an Appendix or Other Appearances or whatever. Until then, if some curious Doctor Who fan comes by, maybe even the comic writers themselves, they're going to want to see this. I've seen people on a forum talking about Doctor Who references in Star Trek and Star Trek references in Doctor Who, and they all came from the wikias (well, I did post the links). ::You think it's supposition, but these are very likely and obvious suppositions. We can't deny authorial intent. Besides, I've already noted everything as being an unnamed character who strongly resembles the Doctor. -- BadCatMan 07:26, February 29, 2012 (UTC) Deletion ; From the Memory Beta:Inclusion policy : Additionally, a source must be the complete and final version of a product; information from pre-release material (trailers, excerpts, and previews) is not acceptable for sourcing in-universe information. :Content which is not cited to one of the licensed sources, or that cites an unacceptable source - such as fan-fiction, unlicensed publications or speculation - is not suitable for this database and will be removed. I have established that all previous references to this character are speculation. Upcoming sources not yet in release are not valid article material. Both points are directly referenced in the above policy. -- Captain MKB 23:38, March 1, 2012 (UTC) :All information present was from complete and final versions of existing, licensed products, and correctly cited. All speculation and potential ambiguities were noted. This page fits none of the criteria listed at Memory Beta:Pages for immediate deletion, and is exactly equivalent to the model you yourself developed when you created TARDIS, except this is based on text descriptions rather than a visual reference (which was without name). :Deleting this out of hand was an abuse of your administrator powers. -- BadCatMan 03:14, March 2, 2012 (UTC) ::Not at all. It's an enforcement of existing site policy that has been agreed upon by consensus. It's unfortunate that you are clouding the issue by making accusations against me personally, although I should at least be glad you've ended your personal tirade on my talk page. No Doctor appearance has been published, therefore no article. -- Captain MKB 00:28, March 3, 2012 (UTC) :::I also find it unfortunate that you habitually begin or continue these disputes by making personal accusations and insults, rather than refuting any counter-arguments. :::Can you please tell me why this is a candidate for immediate deletion as opposed to a deletion discussion? -- BadCatMan 01:00, March 3, 2012 (UTC) ::Saying that everything I do is "an abuse of my powers" is a personal accusation against me, and is uncalled for. ::I -have- responded with one overriding explanation for all counterarguments: Pages based on unreleased material are not allowed. The Doctor Who comic has not yet been released. therefore, this is material not related to the project. The day the comic is released, this article will then become relevant to the Memory Beta project. "the Doctor (Time Lord)" character is not yet in released material. Until then, it is not based on a valid source. Period. -- Captain MKB 01:09, March 3, 2012 (UTC) :::I have never appreciated your continuing belligerent attitude in response to minor errors on my part (Talk:Orion system), misinterpretations on your part (Talk:New Paris, Talk:Khesterex), or disagreements over what constitutes a useful reference source and encyclopaedia (as here). I have always had to be defensive in the face of this. I tried to settle this conflict like rational people on your Talk page, but you did not make that possible. Here, I feel I've raised good reasons as to why a policy change should be considered, and would like to see a wider community discussion on it. Deleting it out of hand eliminated that possibility. :::As I said, this page is based only on released material and so does not qualify for immediate deletion. Regardless, I have two questions. Will this page be restored when Assimilation² is released? What would be needed for it to become acceptable in your eyes before then? -- BadCatMan 03:10, March 3, 2012 (UTC) ::Yes, the history will be restored. As to content, I can only say that I echo the sentiment already stated in these wiki discussions that ancillary appearances that were implied but not part of an actual crossover be moved to a "background" section, in accordance with inclusion policy. I agree they are associated with this character, but they are implied references, so there isn't a way to reconcile them with the POV tone we use in our "in-universe" sections -- as there is only the implied data and not the explicit data. ::As to the rest, please tone it down. This is not a talk page for personal comments. If you can't filter your tone about the fact that we had one or two previous disagreements, I advise you back off, cool down, and stop being like this. -- Captain MKB 03:38, March 3, 2012 (UTC) I assure you that I am entirely calm, cool, collected, etc. I'm taking my time, only posting this in gaps in my work, using the same language with which I communicate to my English-as-a-second-language clients: polite, professional, and precise. I'd speak casually, but I don't think that hasn't worked for us in the past. I did try your Talk page, but you've said you didn't appreciate that either. Now, I've recently discovered some new information: in , upon meeting The Doctor, Soleta says this: ::Soleta looked momentarily confused. "The Doctor? I met a man called the Doctor once. Wore a long brown coat and a blue suit. Very odd person. This isn't him." That's the Tenth Doctor, named and described and existing as a real person within the Star Trek universe. Does that work for you? If you restore the page, I'll give it the necessary overhaul this weekend. That information will be primary (at least until Assimilation² comes along, then we'll see), with the rest in an appendix of other possible appearances. -- BadCatMan 04:45, March 3, 2012 (UTC) :You've got me there. Connection established. Good job turning that one up. -- Captain MKB 04:47, March 3, 2012 (UTC) ::Great! I should have gone and read all the way through Memory Alpha's page earlier. I've redone the article as suggested, with increased specificity and clarification. I hope this works for you. -- BadCatMan 11:11, March 3, 2012 (UTC)